had to look up what exactly it was and wondering why all the fuss and opposition. Why would you bother protesting against it. They are youth getting together, WHO CARES! They are preaching a message we believe in! WHO CARES .. good luck to them. How are they broadcasting heresy and damaging christianity? I think that is part of a heresy that catholics aren't really christians and i know quite alot of real, authentic christians who go to the catholic church!
If you look at the official World Youth Day website it contains information that the pope will be offering people indulgences.
I find this misleading and shocking. I do think Christians should not be involved with these events, but become aware of the catholic faith in order to be able to answer people's questions.
i looked up the website .. didn't see that .. but really is it that big a deal? So the pope tells everyone they have forgiveness of sins! Maybe people will realise how good it feels to be forgiven!!! I think there are worse problems than this!
None of the above really.
I still come on and read but, as I have always done, I only post if i think I can add something constructive (or sometimes cheeky).
I have a suggestion: You could try emailing all on the interactive list on a regular basis (maybe monthly) with a short list of the latest listings, or something else of interest to help draw attention back to Interactive.
I don't think NOONE replies, although that is what i picked, but there is not a huge array of people! Sometimes it feels as tho you are talking to yourself!
yeah - i thought that after I got back from overseas. I was amazed that there are now 400+ members, but it seems to be a core group of about 30 who are posting.
I always appreciate interactive when i remember it's here, for a refreshment, or something that's thought-provoking, but it's easy to be a silent viewer when you don't have to sign in to see things and stuff, people can fly in and out without incentive to contribute. sldkfjlaksdjflasjdfljsjd
you know.... i read somewhere that someone once said something along the lines of (speaking of the early christians) "they didn't have all in common because they shared everything, but because they had all in common the sharing flowed naturally from their unity"
I guess it's like you don't call something "community" because that's what you want it to be, you call it "community" because your describing what you see.
It has been a question of mine whether a standard like the common purse actually stifles heart flowing generosity and desire for equality.
is this the place for disscussion?
Samara,
Rather than stifling I suspect having a common purse frees us all to focus on "his(Gods)" rather than "mine" or even"ours". It really springs from a heart attitude of giving all over to the lord and trusting him in all circumstances.
With that is built humility and a trust for each other and an understanding of each others strengths and weaknessess, freedom to serve each other.......still thinking through it all so will leave it there for now.
I think that your insight regarding 'common purse' being something that describes 'what you see' relevant. There is always the danger of responses that are simply mechanics and leave out real response. The opposite danger also arrives...thinking that somehow our initial response to something can continue on long term without a structure....like a family that 'really' wants to make time to have quality life but simply don't put the right sort of markers, traditions and routine into their lives. Its in the building of these traditions together that helps a group in forming and developing unity. I hope that those living as members within Cornerstone that this discussion at present is helpful....both affirming what has worked and continuing to rethink how we shape our response to this area of life
I have very mixed feelings on the issue of a common purse.
It is good in the sense that all benefit however who decides what is fair an equatable?
I have a few questions though do you assume that the example of acts means the Christians in that example gave everything they had? Does the text say thyey gave up everything they owned all their assets, savings etc?
Heres a hypothetical someone joins up with Cornerstone. They had inherited a large amount of property and money from a family estate prior to joining. Now lets say this person goes on team then to leadership school and then thinks about joining one of the committed communities. Now all through this process they lived and worked like everyone within Cornerstone wihtout ever mentioning the fortune they had acquired. They rarely if ever draw upon those funds and limit themselves to the same kind of living standards that most experience wihtin Cornerstone.
Now down the track they are living in a community holding down job and giving all that income into the common purse while not contributing from their inheritance and the income from their real estate.
After some time of doing this the persons circumstances become known to Cornerstone leadership because an anonymous check that they donate anually is wrongly signed revealing that persons identity.
So under the common purse ethos and the policy of committed communites that all property and assets remains the property of Cornerstone what does Corenerstone do?
I not this is a highly unlikely scenerio to ever happen but has anyone thought about what should happen?
Does a person have to declare any assets or income they have acquired before joining Cornerstone that they draw interest from now as a way of making ends meet?
What compensation does anyone have if they exit Cornerstone's committed communities after 5 years or so?
We have a house (we are paying off) and now have joined in Cornerstone with the common purse operation. There is no sense in which we are obligated to link it or declare it or anything. Rather, the income we earn at the moment goes into paying our way (contributing to the running of things) and we don't walk away with it.
Steve, how do you afford to make loan repayments if all your earnings are forwarded to c'stone? Or is it more of a 'all earnings after repayments' scenario??
Fido, I think the questions you were mostly answered in an entry I made in 'the committed company thread' (on the dunny door forum) ... here's the first part of it ...
The 'common purse' arrangement is one pragmatic answer (and certainly not the only one possible) to quite a few questions which face any group of individuals and families who join together with a mutual commitment to make Jesus' call to mission the *primary* consideration of their lifestyles and choices both personally *and* as a body.
It is *not* driven by an ideological distaste for private property (aka communism) or even private income. There are certainly staff in Cornerstone who own substantial private property and have income streams from sources other then Cornerstone. The community *never* asks for or encourages its members (whether 'staff' or 'students') to donate pre-exisiting personal assets, nor do we lay any kind of claim on income derived from those assets. Indeed, the community is far more likely to discourage anyone from doing so!
The common purse represents a shared covenant among all those in the community (whether centre, team or committed company) that from the time we join the community, our time will be primarily committed to the 'work' of the community (including discipleship, training, workplace involvement, mission and so on) on the same terms as everyone else. That is, its a commitment primarily about our time rather than our money. We are *all* volunteers in all our roles, and any income generated by what we do as members of Cornerstone goes into the common purse. From that, we provide for the needs of all the members of Cornerstone.
This includes (for 'long-term' members ... eg. staff) a cash allowance which provides some appropriate autonomy for individuals and families in making choices re their own lifestyle, within the framework of the community. Admittedly that is pretty limited, but that is more a matter of restricted cash-flow than philosophy ... to the point that it is sustainable (within the creative tensions of all our goals!) the movement would ideally seek to make provisions for our staff (including accom., cash and so on) that in total was effectively equivalent to an average income in Australia (we value simplicity, not poverty!).
Practically, this typically means we live simply (relative to Australian middle-class+ standards) and with a significant level of sharing resources. This really does free up a *lot* of time and energy for strategic activities (eg. training & mentoring, mission and service initiatives, community and relationship-building stuff), allowing us to achieve together much more in any given year than we could otherwise do.
Perhaps the most startling outcome for some is that this means that the income generated by my work will certainly at times be used to cover expenses which benefit other people, and may even be used to purchase assets (eg. houses) which remain the property of the community rather than my personal property. Another is that we make decisions re employment, accommodation, and even holidays, not just unilaterally, but in consultation as a team, and with strategic mission as a *major* factor rather than an after-thought.
In all this, there is (or should be!) a spirit of generosity and flexibility within the community. Beyond the 'official' arrangements, there is a lot of personal giving and taking going on among the community/team, in financial as well as other ways. For unexpected large expenses/needs, members are free to ask for freedom to earn extra (or even be given extra by the community), and I know of many instances where such requests have been met with generosity.
well for those NOT in cornerstone anymore ... debriefing or talking about Cornerstone is not really relevant hey .. what is meant by debriefing anyway ... debriefing WHAT????
Why is looking to the future not relevant Jen? Do you know something we don't?
I also disagree that a debrief isn't relevant to those no longer "in" the organisation. Debriefing is something you, me and others do often in this forum and I think is valuable in terms of understanding where we've come from. I think it's vital that CS examinies what went right, where it went wrong and hopefully learning from the past to improve in the future.
For my part the demise of the Emerald centre has never really been dealt with, or if it has, the wider community was excluded from the "debrief". Those of us from the final year still bear the scars and perhaps a touch of resentment that may be worth unpacking in a constructive way. I'm not suggesting a public debate at Muster delving into people's personal gripes, but i do think that a frank look back at the original objectives, the journey so far and then a look to the future and an outlining of the current objectives would be constructive.
I think that in or out of a CS centre or team we are all part of the history and, as exhibited by our presence on this forum, we all take an interest in the present and the future.
While i may not be directly involved in CS's future I certainly believe the movement has a lot to offer and hope to see people inspired to get into the larger adventure.
cr
true re: debrief! And discussing Cornertone's future (not THE future) seems irrelevant to me as a past cornerstoner. If you went all the way there and then the talk was about where is Cornerstone going ... why is that relevant to me if i'm not involved in Cornerstone? That's something that is done in meetings for those involved isn't it? I guess it's relevant for reference sake, ie. telling others where Cornerstone is heading. I'm just thinking that would be a bit boring - like going to an AGM for the Commonwealth Bank, with a bit more personality. Sorry peoples
Part of talking about Cornerstone's future (and a debrief) may well be to encourage some to join in again, in various different ways. Maybe directly, maybe supporting CS where I am. Hearing a vision for the future means that those returning may well have a renewed vision for how they can come back into this mission after having been out for a while. A debrief would be pretty critical to seeing healing begin where there is hurt and praising God where there was real good happening.
I liked all the options, although some would be more important to me than others. And Jenn, I suspect a CS talk about the future would be nothing like an AGM - rather a vision painted about what CS could be doing, kind of like telling a story that hasn't yet happened.
As for not being involved in Cornerstone, being on interactive means being involved, if simply brushing the edges of the organisational side. Hearing what is going on, praying for the teams, supporting former CSers and carrying on the discussions and ideas from first year and team all goes on here. In a way, cornerstone is much bigger than those who are part of it at any one time. There are those trained there who go on, at different times in life and in different ways, to carry on the mission. I met a guy from my team (10 years ago) this weekend, who is taking what Cornerstone taught him into a private school, working as a chaplain.
I am not part of cornerstone as the organisation, but in heart, mind, and prayer very much a part of it and desiring that it goes on in strength and humility, serving the Father.
There is some interesting comments and questions here. In the next day or two I will start a specific forum area for Muster 07 that will address the issues of de-brief and vision.
I will also start a thread on "control" in the dunny door area - I hope this is okay Chris? I was not around when you were with Cornerstone but I have passed on your comments to the leadership that were.
no worries Andrew after i wrote that i realised i didn't differentiate between the control and Cornerstone it was not intended as an attack on the leaders. I think it is a relevent topic all the same
Hi. First time here and would like to add to croe's comments re debrief. I was there in Emerald the final year too and would like to chat... It feels like CS is another life. I haven't maintained the links much - and miss it! We're living in the Adelaide Hills now and keep up with only one ex-CS family.
It has been a huge struggle settling into a 'normal' church (11 years later we still haven't succeeded!)
CS has given a vision of the kingdom that few other people manage to view - how to keep that vision when there are few like minded around would be something I would like to discuss.
Hi Chris Im Petra and I was in the first year in Emerald
It is sad to hear that something went wrong at the end as we were the ones who started when there was nothing out there but mining huts on the back of trucks bogged in the back paddock...I was reading the dates tonight of the beginning and closing of Emerald and was stunned to see that it closed so long ago...!
I have not communicated with the community for nigh-15 years...up untill this week I didn't know that cornerstone even had a website.
I hope to meet and talk to you some day. I have a feeling that Laurie wants to sort through these very type of problems and hurts as well as speak of vision etc... Try Him.
Love in the Lord
"O thy"
Poll #24
Will you come to the 30th Year Muster and Cornerstone Celebration? (29th November to 2 December 2007)
Posted by Andrew Grant. Active from Tuesday 20 March 2007 - 21:45:43 to Friday 03 August 2007 - 14:39:37. Total votes: 60
Nathan is a high school teacher too, but I reeeeeaaaally hope he can still come along with me and Elora.
I'm hoping to see lots of familiar faces from the 80s and 90s in Bourke, as well as many of my own fellow Canowindra students. Should be a great time!!!
Maybe you should rephrase the question Andy. I think the term 'church' is ambiguous because it is such an emotionally loaded word.
Would you say that "the gathering" at b'badine is a church??
Sounds more like an 'emerging church', just to tie in another one of our forum discussions!
church is an essential part of a christians life. God calls us to be a part of His family as outlined in His Word. God saves individuals but He then places us in a family; God's people, a chosen nation, treasured and is the bride of Christ.
yes, but whether or not we have warped God's intention is another question altogether. it is all well and good to have a textbook definition of 'church', but if you cannot see how irrelevant it has become to many who are searching for God in modern society, then you are missing the point.
Church is not an essential part of a Christian's life - friendship and support are.
church does not come from man but from God . Christ will build his church whether we think he is doing a good job or not.
Church s not an option as God does not leave us as isolated individuals. His Holy Spirit indwells us and places us in his body the church. the church is organised according to his revelation not our ideas. (Cannot forget God's soveriegnty.)
We are the church...or more correctly the ecclesia or "called out people of God". As members of the Kingdom of God, sharing life together is the whole purpose of Gods universal plan which starts now and will be brought into fulfillment (Eph 2:9ff)
Should a person have to attend a 'meeting' in a 'building' on 'Sunday' from where we expect the total spiritual sustainance and mission of Christs body to be able to be supported ('ooops I forgot mid week bible studies).......well......
Arguably he was committed to a congregation at Antioch until they sent him on a mission, and then he was committed to the congregations he began, plus others he didn't - but I don't know that Paul is the best benchmark for this kind of debate in some ways.
I guess 'ecclesia' rather than congregation might work better, but definitely a group meeting together, whatever the particular arrangement.
Interestingly in 'Shaping of Things to come' Frost and Hirsch still seem to advocate a intentional, organised approach to the emerging church, and so the potential to become institutional is always there, even if it never eventuates.
yeah totally. i just think it strange how we continue to use language that we wouldnt normally use.
its a trigger word - for me and i suspect for others too - and i think we need to be wary of how language can impose certain limits on our actions and perceptions.
Suggest they picket every newsagent and petrol station for selling the same kind of porn they're picketing the proposed adult shop for selling.
I reacted when one of the church elders was quoted in the media as saying "we can't have a sex shop next door to our church. We'll have to look out of the windows at people jerking off in the street!"
we all have our disappointments with church, but we are all sinful so it should not be unexpected. But the church is God's people, God's family and we are supposed to be close like a family. Remembver Paul said that we are to forgive each other, practice hospitality, help each other with our burdens, etc. So we can't do that unless we our basically living out of each others pockets.
By the way I've quite enjoyed the Presbyterian church that we go to on the Gold Coast. Our minister came up from the Sydney Anglicans (st. Matthias church). It's been quite stimulating.
We have just moved and are looking for a church to go to. It is a side issue to this debate, but still applicable. "If you agree that you need to go to a church, then what are the things that you look for in a church?"
Should you pick one and make it work? For if going to church is a necessity then we should be able to be a member of the family or the body anywhere. We should be able to forgive eachother, practice hospitality etc anywhere.
Back to my previous post, I think the idea of Paul is relevant because it shows that there is more than one model of relationships between an individual with churches/ekklesia/congregations than just the one we are used to in western culture.
Just for the record, I think we have overlaid the words in the New Testament that say not to give up the habit of meeting as some have done with post Constantine, post reformation meanings. Churches in those days were not the congregations that we have these days practicing the priest-craft model of "church", but were small groups of people meeting in a variety of situations and methods with eachother to worship God and share in the life of the Kingdom.
The way God was worhipped all changed when Constantine made Christianity legal and made it the state religion.
Thus I do not think that us going to a post-Constantine preist-craft dominated version of meeting is a necessity. But I do think that meeting with other Christians in an intentional manner for the worship of God and the encouragement of others is a necessity.
Is the church God's people or are God's people the church?
Well it should be the same in a perfect world.
It does depend on how you define God's people. This very much relates to the Auburn Ave Chuch Federal Vision controversey at the moment in the USA.
Come on sunday and off to church we go.
cheers ian r
If you're only warming a pew then I would say that yes, attending church IS a waste of time. If however you make the effort to engage with the the "ecclesia"and spend time with comrades-in-arms, then Church can be a great doorway.
I go to church most Sundays, and while I can't say I really enjoy sitting, standing, singing etc., as Chris says, it is vital to be dialed in to a group of believers.
As a shift worker I have at various times struggled to attend any church or Xn activities and have found that my thinking becomes very worldly very quickly. The longer I am away from church the harder it is to motivate myself to go and my spiritual life suffers. Pride and a "to cool for school" attitude toward Xns creeps in very quicky. It would be great to be strong enough to survive on my own by experience has taught me that this is very hard.
Meeting with Xns is vital and my association with a church facilatates this. For us, the physical church based around Sunday services is the anchor for a range of "ministries" (I hate all the jargon too!) that are supported physically, financially and spiritually. Without a structured environment as a base, most of these things would be very dificult to maintain and coordinate.
Small groups are the true foundation of our church community and I think that this is the key to penetrating the Sunday service. While I'm not a big fan of the prescribed meeting it certainly helps to have a network of friends scattered around the room. We also follow the sermons in our home groups and it's a good way to actually absorb, break things down and then act on it.
I like to think that when St Paul spoke at a meeting he was roundly questioned at the finish and the topic was discussed at length afterwards by groups of friends who were there. Ultimately of course it needs to be put into practice and I think that by sharing your walk with a body of believers this becomes far more achievable.
cr
It would be easy to answer the question in a variety of ways, but I will essentially be saying the same thing. To get together with other Christian people is great, and something we are called to do. When a bunch of Christian people get together to learn, praise God, and encourage each other in the faith then that is what I would see as the church. So I would be so bold as to say that getting online, and becoming a part of this community of radical Jesus followers, through a forum is 'going to church'. Not your average, sit on a hard wodden pew, and hear a man yell up the front something about going to hell...well it isn't as bad as all that these days, but who would go to something like that except out of some sort of obligation to 'do the right thing'? plenty of people do the same at even the most lively of churches. All this to say that Church as we define it may be very different to how another person does. That's ok. Wherever you go, or whatever you do that comes under the banner of church...I wouldn't miss it for the world (literally :) )
But, God has used the helfire and brimstone thing in many a world-changing revival through the last 300 years. The Wesleys, Jonathon Edwards are just 2 that have left a permanent mark on the "church" landscape. Obviously that was the right thing at the right time for those people.
But I agree about the online thing. I was talking to a friend the other day and he was encouraging me with words from a book called something like "THE hour that changes the World". I have yet to read it, but it says that we should pray for an hour every so often. Now the traditional view of what prayer is is different to what this guy says. His includes other things like meditation using stimulus like books, and even internet forums.
All this to say that if we are all using this to build eachother up, in worsipping the one true God, then why could it not be an expression of church in this new context? God is not conformed to our models!
"If you're only warming a pew then I would say that yes, attending church IS a waste of time. If however you make the effort to engage with the the "ecclesia"and spend time with comrades-in-arms, then Church can be a great doorway."
- Croe
That is a great point. I don't always agree with things the "chruch" says or does but thats not the point of attending church for me. Jesus' great commission to us was "go and make disciples" I think that church is a good place for this. Not only does it give you a chance to talk to people, it gives you a chance to encourage other Christians in their walk.
Ive been given the excuse "because I live in Cornerstone I don't go to Church, Cornerstone is my church." I think thats a load of crap, its like saying that a couple of Christians saying we don't need to leave the house because we are both Christians and we have Church all the time.
To expand our horizons when it comes to defining church is a great thing. Yet words, and definitions just don't cut it do they? It is when the rubber hits the road, when we are with a bunch of people who challenge us to think a little wider, give us a kick up the bum when we need it, or be there when we need to have a good cry (and us be there for them with all this too!) makes church real. It is wonderful when two people living together can be that for each other, and point to God in the mundane, and colour of life, but it is also a good thing to spread your (me included) outlook to what impact a couple of hour's with other christians and, shock horror, people who aren't even christians, to see God at work, and give you just the shake up you needed :)
Poll #19
Are you interested in doing the Leadership Course at the newly specialised Dubbo campus:
Posted by Andrew Grant. Active from Wednesday 20 December 2006 - 14:26:38 to Tuesday 20 February 2007 - 10:54:57. Total votes: 30
having already committed to being on team next year i would like to think leadership school would be the next step. although you can't place limits on what God would have you do either. I've found that whwen we are following the master, he can and does! call us to do things when we least expect it!
i can't vote coz there isn't a space for me ... so i'll just comment .. Tim has already done it (well grad - is that leadership school) - the one in Bourke? And i would like to ... but Tim wouldn't go back in a pink fit, after being told certain things by certain leaders! So i guess that would be no way from us! Do you do correspondence courses ....! You should - i did investigate some Les told me about. I either want to do that or counselling thru AIFC i think. Then Living Wisdom stuff.
I was flicking through a couse manual called 2007 Guide to Christian Colleges.
The intro to the book (Brian Hill, Emeritus Prof Ed Murdoch Uni) suggested that Christian Colleges need to rediscover the method of Jesus and Paul in training: that is through telling, doing & being. All three things should be evident in the course you decide on.
I can't speak from experience for the 80 colleges available in Australia but I can say that Leadership School next year will be even more than ever focussed on an 'All of life' approach to training leaders.
One final note: How come Cornerstone hasn't put a large advert in the guide? $$$ or lack of market interest??? T
i would have voted but there wasn't an option for not sure yet. i'm doing my first year of team next year so i'm just gonna take it as it comes i might do it one day.
40.63% [Votes: 13]
